Editing Talk:Festivale Series

== Split into Pavé Series ==

I think this page should be two pages, Festivale Series and Pavé Series. I have four reasons why I think we should split this page:
# The two series do not share a name (in English).
# The furniture in the Festivale Series do not look like the furniture in the Pavé series.
# Series that look similar but have different names (I.e. [[Cool Series]] and [[Sleek Series]]) do not have the same page.
# Other event-themed series which have similarly been renamed and redesigned have been given their own pages (I.e. [[Harvest Series]] and [[Turkey Day Series]]).
With these reasons I think it be logical to split this page. The only reason this may not be reasonable is the shared name in other languages, but I still think it should be split. [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 19:58, March 15, 2022 (EDT)

:{{Oppose}} The Pavé Series and the Festivale Series are '''not''' different furniture series. They are the same furniture series in Japan, the カーニバルシリーズ. The name change is exclusive to certain international countries, such as North America and Italy, but was kept the same in many other international countries, such as Korea, France, Quebec, and Germany.

:Whenever it is clear that a furniture series/set/theme has had a re-translated name in North America (for example, the にわセット has had three different English names, including Zen Garden Set, Backyard Set, and Mossy Garden Set), each English name for the furniture set doesn't receive a different page, because it is clear that they are the same entity. They remain on the same page and a note is added about the older names. The English names shouldn't take priority; this isn't a perfect analogy, but Bliss and Caroline are not treated as two different villagers just because her English name was changed in Wild World.

:The visual appearance change of the Pavé/Festivale Series in New Horizons, along with the name change, can make it seem like it is an entirely different series. However, returning back to the original translation issue, it was only translated differently outside of Japan in certain countries, such as North America. The series has always been called the Carnival Series in Japan (and several other international countries) because the player typically obtains the series during Festivale/Carnival. For comparison, no items from the Spooky Series in Animal Crossing, City Folk, or New Leaf make a return to the Spooky Series in New Horizons, other than the "Spooky Wall," which looks nothing like its earlier incarnation. But it is still the same furniture series, it just happens to retain its original name in both Japan and North America. The series can have its items change and still be the same series. I think the original Japanese name is highly important to keep in mind as a type of canon. 

:The Harvest Series and Turkey Day Series is a poor counterpoint because the name is different in all languages. [[User:HylianAngel|HylianAngel]] ([[User talk:HylianAngel|talk]]) 20:00, March 15, 2022 (EDT)

:: {{Comment}} The Zen Garden set has similar furniture in all the games, so I think that is a bad comparison. I do not think the items in a series should be able to change drastically and still be the same series. I still think a split should be made, and the Spooky Series should be split into Spooky Series (New Horizons) and Spooky Series. I think the appearance is more important than the name. [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 20:18, March 15, 2022 (EDT) Harvest Series and Turkey Day Series is a poor counterpoint because the name is different in all languages
[[Category:Active discussions]]
@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 # Series that look similar but have different names (I.e. [[Cool Series]] and [[Sleek Series]]) do not have the same page.
 # Other event-themed series which have similarly been renamed and redesigned have been given their own pages (I.e. [[Harvest Series]] and [[Turkey Day Series]]).
-With these reasons I think it is logical to split this page. The only reason this may not be reasonable is the shared name in other languages, but I still think it should be split. [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 19:58, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
+With these reasons I think it be logical to split this page. The only reason this may not be reasonable is the shared name in other languages, but I still think it should be split. [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 19:58, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
 :{{Oppose}} The Pavé Series and the Festivale Series are '''not''' different furniture series. They are the same furniture series in Japan, the カーニバルシリーズ. The name change is exclusive to certain international countries, such as North America and Italy, but was kept the same in many other international countries, such as Korea, France, Quebec, and Germany.
@@ Line 16: / Line 16: @@
 :The Harvest Series and Turkey Day Series is a poor counterpoint because the name is different in all languages. [[User:HylianAngel|HylianAngel]] ([[User talk:HylianAngel|talk]]) 20:00, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
-:: {{Comment}} The Zen Garden set has similar furniture in all the games, so I think that is a bad comparison. I do not think the items in a series should be able to change drastically and still be the same series. I still think a split should be made, and the Spooky Series should be split into Spooky Series (New Horizons) and Spooky Series. I think the appearance is more important than the name. [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 20:18, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
+:: {{Comment}} The Zen Garden set has similar furniture in all the games, so I think that is a bad comparison. I do not think the items in a series should be able to change drastically and still be the same series. I still think a split should be made, and the Spooky Series should be split into Spooky Series (New Horizons) and Spooky Series. I think the appearance is more important than the name. [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 20:18, March 15, 2022 (EDT) Harvest Series and Turkey Day Series is a poor counterpoint because the name is different in all languages
+[[Category:Active discussions]]
-:::{{Comment}} If the English name being the same for a furniture series that received a visual redesign can't be used as a supporting point for keeping the Spooky Series in AC/CF/NL on the same page as the Spooky Series for NH, then that means the English names for furniture series can't be used as a supporting point for separating the pages in the first place, placing the reason for splitting up the pages purely on the visual redesign. And if that's the case, then the other series that returned in New Horizons with a visual redesign, such as the Ranch Series and Sloppy Series, should be on their own pages, since their names don't matter. But I highly believe that the names do matter. I don't think it's reasonable to have separate New Horizons pages for the Spooky Series (or the Ranch Series or the Sloppy Series) just because of the visual redesign. They've always had the same Japanese and English names and should remain on the same page, with the note about the redesign. I feel strongly the same about the Festive and Festival Series. [[User:HylianAngel|HylianAngel]] ([[User talk:HylianAngel|talk]]) 20:33, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
-::::{{Comment}} Maybe those series like the Ranch Series ''should'' get their own pages. I know item pages are not the same as series pages, but items from different games do get their own pages. Whichever way is decided, a note should be added to the Nookipedia Writing Policy so this does not happen again. [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 20:46, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
-::::{{Comment}} Thinking about it more, I have changed my mind. This page should not be split. However, I think  a note should be placed at the top of the article about the redesign, and the Nookipedia writing policy should mention when furniture series are considered the same and when they are not. Is that fair? [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 07:41, March 17, 2022 (EDT)
-:::::{{Comment}} It's already mentioned in the NH sections that the furniture was redesigned, for the Festive/Festivale/Spooky Series pages, although some pages like the Ranch Series still need that information added. I'm not totally against also mentioning it in the page intro paragraphs, but it might be slightly redundant since it's already in the NH sections. (Although some furniture series pages already have slight redundancies in certain aspects, and a small redundancy might be fine in this case for clarity.) About editing the Nookipedia Manual of Style, I think more people need to agree on that type of change before it is added, either here or on I think [[Nookipedia talk:Manual of Style]]. I feel really strongly about keeping the pages together, but more people might vote and disagree with me, so we should wait to hear what other people have to say. [[User:HylianAngel|HylianAngel]] ([[User talk:HylianAngel|talk]]) 08:29, March 17, 2022 (EDT)
-::::::{{Comment}} Ok, can you start a discussion on [[Nookipedia talk:Manual of Style]] about when furniture series are the same and when not? I do not know how to start the discussion. As for noting the redesign in two different places feeling redundant, perhaps one of us should write a description of the series like some of the other series pages have (why do only some series pages include those descriptions?), but for both designs. That would make it feel less redundant. [[User:Moomoomeadows|—Moo🐮Moo🐄Meadows]] ([[User talk:Moomoomeadows|talk]]) 19:10, March 17, 2022 (EDT)
-:::::::{{Comment}} I'm not going to start that discussion, because I don't feel strongly about having it noted in the MoS or not. Plus again, it might be better to have more people agree/disagree on the furniture series page split before proposing that type of change to the MoS, it's only been a couple of days since this page split discussion started. (Though it might end up being that other people will not end up commenting because they feel neutrally about this topic.) If you feel like mentioning the furniture series standards belongs in the MoS and want to propose adding that change to the MoS, you would just start the discussion by clicking +Topic in the upper-right corner of [[Nookipedia talk:Manual of Style]].
-:::::::And yeah, you're right, it makes sense describing the general appearance of the furniture in the intro, and that would be a good place to mention the furniture redesign. I added the general appearance to the intro of some pages that were missing that information, but there are like around maybe 77 furniture series pages, which is a lot.
-:::::::"why do only some series pages include those descriptions?"<br>
-:::::::Just nobody has gotten around to it yet, but yeah ideally they should definitely all include that information. [[User:HylianAngel|HylianAngel]] ([[User talk:HylianAngel|talk]]) 19:37, March 17, 2022 (EDT)
-:::::::{{Comment}} By the way, I just wanted to mention that according to the City Folk spreadsheet, this is called the Festivale Series in City Folk as well. So Nintendo only called it the Pavé Series in New Leaf for some reason. Similarly, the Festive Series is called the Jingle Series in Animal Crossing and New Leaf, but it is called the Festive Series in City Folk and New Horizons. [[User:HylianAngel|HylianAngel]] ([[User talk:HylianAngel|talk]]) 19:53, April 2, 2022 (EDT)