Nookipedia talk:Community Fountain
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How the wiki Handles Styles
I don't know if this isn't the right place to put this discussion, or if it has been raised before somewhere else. I noticed that some of the lists of furniture of each color list what "style" they are in New Leaf, but the colorful, blue, brown, gray, black, and white pages call them "vibes" instead. There do not seem to be any lists for clothing to see their styles. Also, the Villager Info template seems to automatically draw items of the appropriate color and style for ideal gifts, but I do not know where it draws it from. This template also links to a page for the appropriate color and style, but none of the style pages exist. Might it be possible to automatically generate pages for each style in a similar way to how the template does it? Also, should I be saying "style" or "vibe"? Should there be a page for "Styles"? Ok (talk) 14:43, February 10, 2019 (EST)
- The tables for furniture sorted by color are horribly outdated. The last update in content was at 2014, and by then Template:TableHeader was already a thing, which should standardize these all (i.e., they're called styles). And where did you get "vibe" from? There was not a single instance of that word in any of the articles you've linked. I am not so sure whether Style is notable enough to merit a separate page. Updating Furniture to add mechanics (e.g., effects of the colors and styles on villager interaction) is a wiser decision.
- The ideal gifts are drawn from Template:Villager Info. I invite you to read the source code yourself, but, from <!--Second Table-->, it is generated from Template:Ideal Clothing, Template:Ideal Furniture, or Template:Ideal Gifts, and from there, the "ideal gifts" are hardcoded. (The ideal gifts are non-exhaustive, but a small sample from a large pool.) This is all done by User:sunmarsh, which we should commend.
- Those links in the bottom, e.g., List of Cute Items in Animal Crossing: New Leaf in Chrissy's page, say that the original authors of the templates intended these pages be made. If you have sufficient time, you can create these pages using Template:TableHeader and by parsing data (e.g., regex) from, say, Liquefy's item list with proper citation.
- I hope that helps. Feel free to update the pages if necessary (and if you make a mistake, the kind people here will let you know on your talk page), but you're already doing good work on the Japanese transcription. Also I don't know whether you're already there, but consider joining the Discord server for asking little questions regarding the Wiki, or just hanging out in general. Decomposer (talk) 07:41, February 14, 2019 (EST)
- Yeah, really soon after I made this section, Drago changed Template:ItemList NL to say "style" instead of "vibe." Ideally, though, they would all use Template:TableHeader instead. I might look at those templates you linked, thank you! Also, I will look into the discord. Ok (talk) 13:36, February 14, 2019 (EST)
I'm sorry to put two topics here in a row (so soon after making an account) and maybe raise points that no one cares about, but I think it would be helpful if we had a clearly defined standard for romaji use (transliterating Japanese into Latin letters) so that we could make it consistent everywhere. If there already is a standard, I'm sorry! I put together the following proposal for rules based on what seems to be the de facto standard here (of course, there are exceptions; I wanted to be able to edit those out consistently):
- Consonants and short vowels are represented identically to their representations in Modified Hepburn.
- As a consequence, （ん、ン）is always n, not m, and is followed by an apostrophe (') before an ア行 kana (a vowel). (note: On some pages, an apostrophe is also used before a ナ行 kana (a kana beginning with an 'n' sound). However, it is a minority, and I would argue against including this in a set of rules because it is non-standard and serves no purpose; There is no ambiguity when just using a double n because the sokuon does not ever appear before ナ行 kana.)
- The sokuon (っ、ッ) is not represented at all at the end of a word.
- Long vowels spelled with an ア行 kana after a kana of the same 段 (ie, spelled with two of the same vowel in a row), or spelled with a chōonpu (ー), are all represented with a macron over the vowel (ā, ī, ū, ē, ō).
- ～ is treated as a chōonpu.
- Other long vowels are represented with vowel sequences, as if they were sequences of the short vowels that they are spelled with in kana. (ex. おう -> ou, えい -> ei)
- Small kana which are not part of a standard digraph are treated as their large variants.
- Changing between hiragana and katakana, as well as other word boundaries, are represented by a space (ex. Ribbot's catchphrase だロボ -> da robo).
In situations where diacritics (the macrons, in this case) should not be used, such as when the Japanese name of a character is being used as their English name due to not yet having appeared in an English game, There are a couple of options (I use Twiggy's Japanese name as an example):
- Simply omit macrons. (ピーチク -> Pīchiku -> Pichiku)
- Spell long vowels that would be represented with macrons with two of the same vowel letter. (ピーチク -> Pīchiku -> Piichiku)
I think that I prefer the first alternative, since with the second option, English spelling would make people likely to mispronounce many words spelled with ee or oo. Maybe we could do a hybrid where we spell ē and ō as e and o, and the rest as double letters. Or, we could just use the macrons everywhere (the only downside is that they're hard to input for most keyboards).
If anyone disagrees with any of these rules or thinks I got something wrong, or if you have other ideas, feel free to say so!
Also, I would like to ask how to handle the Japanese names in Infobox Villager and Infobox Special templates. A couple of days ago, I edited the japanese field in the Infobox Villager of a couple of villagers whose names in Japanese come from other languages and thus have standardized spellings in Latin letters. I followed the example of the pages for Alfonso and Ruby, where the first line has the name in kana, the second has the romaji, and the third has the standard spelling. I like this format because it includes the most information. However, virtually all of the other villagers whose names were from other languages only had the romaji or the standard spelling, not both. Furthermore, many use the JN template, which only has 2 lines (and has the unfortunate side-effect of cancelling the bold text; can someone change that? If it's not intended...) If we only include one, I think that the standard spelling would be more useful. I don't mind at all going through a lot of these pages and putting in the spellings.
Many of the special characters' Japanese names (like Reese, who is Lisa) also have standard spellings, and all of these pages use the JN template (it looks prettier in the Infobox Special template) so I think it would be most convenient thing would be for someone to just add a line to the template.
- I don't have anything useful to add to this as I'm unfamiliar with Japanese - just wanted to say, appreciate you bringing this up and I think it would be great if we can come up with a documented standardization for all this :) ~SuperHamster Talk 22:31, February 13, 2019 (EST)
- Thank you so much SuperHamster!
- Anyway, I noticed I forgot one obvious thing, so I will add it here (it goes with the 2nd bullet point):
- An apostrophe should also be used after n before a ヤ行 kana (one starting with a y) to distinguish it from youon. (んや -> n'ya, にゃ -> nya)
- Also, I realized that if we do put all three forms of some villagers' Japanese names, then we may or may not not want to include the standard spelling if:
- I'm not really against including it in any of these situations, but it would become redundant. (Finally, I should have spelled chōonpu as chouonpu as per this standard, oops.) Ok (talk) 13:36, February 14, 2019 (EST)
- Anyway, I noticed I forgot one obvious thing, so I will add it here (it goes with the 2nd bullet point):
- I'm one of the seemingly few people here who know Japanese (though you definitely seem to be a level ahead of me) and overall I agree with everything you've said. Those are more or less the rules I've been trying to follow anyway, and having a standardization for it would be great!
- For the villagers with three name forms (using Alfonso as an example) I'd like to suggest something like:
- as I feel stacking all three names ends up feeling a bit cluttered. Maybe we could even update Template:JN to work like this?
- Also, regarding macrons, I'm in favor of just using them everywhere. The editor does have a built-in "special characters" list so being hard to input shouldn't be too big of an issue. --Lotter(talk) 09:37, February 18, 2019 (EST)
- Hey, thanks! That's actually a really good idea, and it looks good in both templates! I went ahead and made 2 test templates for JN to test this idea: User:Ok/sandbox/JN and User:Ok/sandbox/JN2. The first one always puts the romaji in the hover-over text, while the second one only does so if there is no latin spelling given. I don't know which would be better; the JN2 might be good because it looks the same for both types of names. I didn't make it bold it in the templates since both infoboxes automatically bold their "japanese" field, but if this template needs to be used anywhere else, I can add bold to it. Also, to see comparisons of their effects, I used them on test names with and without latin spellings, alone and in both Template:Infobox Villager and Template:Infobox Special, which you can see at User:Ok/sandbox.
- By the way, if we can use macrons anywhere, do you think it's ok to use them in page titles? Because if so, I think we should move Jubei to Jūbē. I actually was kind of unsure of what to do about him, because ベエ is actually an old male name suffix that is spelled with 2 kanji, 兵衛 (ジュウベエ would probably be 十兵衛). There is often a convention not to group together as long vowels sounds that are written with different kanji, but they are pronounced the same. Also, his name isn't really spelled with 2 kanji, so I kind of think we should just treat it as a long vowel, in any case. Lol sorry to bring up so much extra stuff in this response, I mainly just wanted to thank you for your idea!
- Ok (talk) 21:01, February 18, 2019 (EST)
- Looks great! I'd say JN2 is better since it's both more visually consistent and always easy to tell even at a quick glance. We probably don't need to use it anywhere else so I don't think you need to worry about bolding it - and if we ever do we could just change it then.
- As a general rule I see no reason why we couldn't have macrons in page titles, as long as we also keep a redirect that omits them. As for Jubei in particular, that's kind of a tricky situation; if we simply transcribe the kana following the stated rules, then yes, it would be Jūbē. But at the same time Jubei (or Jūbei) seems to be the common English spelling, so in a sense it also falls under the same category as for example Joe, despite being a Japanese name. To a lesser extent there's also the issue that the name has already established itself throughout the fandom at large. (Though he's obscure enough that I wouldn't consider that a huge deal.) All in all, though, I could really see it going either way. If it was up to me I think I'd only move it to Jūbei at most, but it would probably be good to get more people's opinion on the matter as well.
- And no worries, I think it's great that you're bringing this up because we really do need to sort some of these things out! Thank you for taking the time and effort! --Lotter(talk) 22:49, February 18, 2019 (EST)
- Note: the JN template has now been updated and as such should be used. --Ok (talk) 15:31, March 4, 2019 (EST)
I have created a page on my user page that will compile just the bullet points of the standard, so its current state can be more easily referred to. You can still discuss it here. In addition, I changed all usages of 行 and 段 for kana to the words "row" and "grade" to make it easier for English speakers to read. I would also like to propose the following rule about word boundaries:
- All particles, such as が, を, よ, ね, and だ, are treated as separate words, unless they begin with ん or っ, in which case they should be written together with the word they follow.
Treating particles as separate words would make it easier to place word boundaries, as sometimes what is considered a particle by some is considered a full word by others. However, particles like ん and って cannot be words on their own, because their first sound must go at the end of a syllable. As such, they must be treated as part of the word they modify. (We could hyphenate them? It might look ugly: あるんだって言ってた -> Aru-n da-tte itteta?) --Ok (talk) 15:31, March 4, 2019 (EST)
I would like to discuss how we handle an i-grade kana followed by small ィ. It seems like there is somewhat of a standard to use "yi" for the rōmaji. However, I would suggest that for all cases except for イィ, we use "ī" instead. This is how it is actually pronounced in Japanese; it is mostly used as a cutesy way to transcribe an "ie" or "y" sound from English at the end of a word (/iː/ for most speakers, /ɪ/ in some dialects, especially British). For example, "Lily" is written リリー or リリィ; Harpie Lady from Yu-Gi-Oh is written ハーピィ・レディ. It is also used for a /ji/ ("yi") sound from other languages, but since English lacks this with any consonants beforehand (we don't have "byee," for example) it is usually only used this way for イィ. I would really like some discussion before I changed pages' rōmaji, though. The only villager names that use this type of kana are Bonbon (who is named the same as Mimmy from Hello Kitty), Carrie (Mommy), Frobert (Cozy), and Skye (Lily).—Ok (talk) 14:23, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
Multiple colors or HHA themes in tablesIn Animal Crossing: New Leaf, every clothing and furniture item has two colors, which may or may not be the same and may have up to three HHA themes. However, the treatment of both of these in tables here is not consistent. When the colors are different, they are represented in a table separated by a slash: "Black / Blue" However, when they are the same, they are sometimes represented the same way, but sometimes only one color template appears, followed by "(x2)": "Black / Black" or "Black (x2)" When an item has multiple HHA themes, they are separated by either slashes, commas, ampersands, or only spaces:
"Antique / Rustic" or "Antique, Rustic" or "Antique & Rustic" or "Antique Rustic"On the discord, Decomposer and I discussed forming a standard for these tables. We would like to propose that slashes always be used to separate both colors and HHA themes, without ever using "(x2)." I think that this will make tables look the most clean and consistent. Examples of the proposed standard follow. "Black / Blue" or "Black / Black" "Antique" or "Antique / Rustic" or "Antique / Harmonious / Rustic"
- Note: the standard for colors would also apply to furniture tables from all games from Wild World onwards. In the previous games, furniture only has one type of Feng Shui, so no separators are needed. Ok (talk) 20:33, February 28, 2019 (EST)
Following this one up. I mentioned in the Discord that List of yellow furniture items and List of green furniture items use different styles. The lack of some Nookipedia Manual of Style is most likely to blame. While this inconsistency can be mitigated by changing the tables right now (preferably parsing through regex), a MOS could be drafted to prevent more inconsistencies in the future. >Decomposer 07:28, March 5, 2019 (EST)